Origin > How to Build a Brain > Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
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    Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
by   Raymond Kurzweil

Ray Kurzweil reviews Rodney Brooks' latest book on robotics for Wired Magazine. Brooks challenges Jaron Lanier's claim that AI is "based on an intellectual mistake" and Kurzweil's statements on reverse-engineering the brain and the date of the "Singularity." Kurzweil responds.


Originally published in the February 2002 issue of Wired Magazine. Published on KurzweilAI.net January 29, 2002.

As one of the world's leading roboticists, Rodney Brooks (Director of the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and Chairman of the successful iRobot Corporation) is also the consummate teacher. He has a penchant for clear explanation and in his latest book, Brooks lucidly explores a wide range of themes related to his life with robots. These range from personal anecdotes (e.g., his first encounter with another legendary robot builder, Hans Moravec, who was then living in his Stanford laboratory and musing about exotic topics ranging from sky hooks to tree-like robots), historical vignettes (e.g., Marvin Minsky's unsuccessful attempt to solve the computer "vision" problem in a single Summer in 1966), algorithmic insights (e.g., how his Genghis robot achieved "animal-like behavior" from a few dozen simple programs operating in parallel), philosophical musings (e.g., what is the true nature of consciousness, "apart from our own personal experience of what it is like to be us?"), and ethical dilemmas (e.g., when will we need to stop treating robots like slaves). The book ranges far and wide, but maintains a unity around the author's passion for creating what he calls "situated creatures," which we can eventually regard as our teachers and companions.

One of Brooks' favorite themes is to present human history as a series of sobering lessons on why we're not special. Copernicus' sixteenth century observations revealed that the Universe did not revolve around us after all. Darwin's Origin of Species argued that we were not all that different from animals. They were, after all, our distant relatives. In the past century, quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle placed apparent limits on our ability to know with certainty "what was going on in the Universe." With Crick and Watson's discovery of DNA, we went a step beyond Darwin and discovered that 98% of our genetic blueprint is shared with chimpanzees, and that we have only about twice as many genes as a fruit fly.

And now, Brooks points out, our uniqueness is being challenged once again, this time by creations of our own making. I would point out that this does indeed suggest a way in which humankind is special. Other species have certainly found competition in their ecological niches. But we're the only species that has been challenged by an evolutionary process that we initiated.

Brooks provides some cogent arguments against long-term critics of AI. He correctly points out that virtual reality pioneer Jaron Lanier's claim that AI is "based on an intellectual mistake....does not follow his premise."

Brooks points out how many of long-term AI critic Hubert Dreyfus' arguments were based on short sighted and now discredited claims of what computers "could not do in principle." Brooks points out how physicist Roger Penrose's claim that human consciousness derives from mysterious quantum effects in small neuronal structures called tubules has no supporting evidence. I would also point out that even if Penrose's claim were correct, there is nothing preventing us from applying the same quantum effects in our machines. Brooks presents an effective refutation of Searle's now decades old tautological Chinese Room argument.

Brooks then presents his own thesis on what constitutes the "new stuff" that separates intelligent life from not quite intelligent non life. Brooks calls it "the juice," and does not quite explain what it is, but does appropriately hint that it has to do with as yet undiscovered principles of biological systems. I believe we have learned a subset of these principles (e.g., self-organization, self-referencing, massive parallelism, holographic organization of memory, etc.), and that we will learn the rest of these principles from a grand project that is underway to reverse engineer (i.e., to learn the principles of operation of) human neural organization.

I am pleased to say that I am not left off of Brooks' list of thinkers he takes issue with. He agrees with me that computers will match the computational power of the human brain within a couple of decades. He claims, however, that I provide no prescription for the software of intelligence. I don't have the space here to describe my software thesis in full, but it has to do with the reverse engineering of the human brain that I allude to above. Brooks provides little discussion of this important source of knowledge that represents at least one important source for AI insights. Brooks says that my thesis "neglects the primary role played by the bath of neurotransmitters and hormones," although I would point out that these are relatively low bandwidth phenomena and are more easily modeled than neurons. He says that my thesis "neglects the role of our body in placing constraints and providing noncomputational aspects to our existence." As a roboticist, Brooks should appreciate the feasibility of providing the "noncomputational" aspects of a physical presence. Yet another approach to providing bodies for our machines will be virtual bodies in virtual environments, which Brooks also does not discuss.

Brooks says that I'm predicting a "singularity in which computation makes us all-powerful around the year 2020," and goes on to imply that I chose that date because I'll then be about seventy years old, and later dates would not satisfy my desire to participate in this singularity. First of all, I would repeat here Brooks' criticism of Lanier, that this is not an argument. Second, I would point out that Brooks' date is wrong. I've always indicated 2030 for computers achieving rough equivalence with human intelligence, and the 2040's for the "singularity," in which nonbiological intelligence dominates. So I'll be pushing 100 around the time of the Singularity. And, yes, I do plan on being around.

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juice
posted on 01/29/2002 6:42 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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Brooks is wrong about the juice. That should be clear - at least.

Kurzweil,on the other hand, can come 20 years too late to the Singularity ignition party - if he will insist on that '2040 prediction'. :)

- Thomas

Re: juice
posted on 01/29/2002 12:10 PM by derechoprime@msn.com

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Right on Thomas! Things are moving fast.

Re: juice
posted on 01/29/2002 10:13 PM by afreebuck@hotmail.com

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Wrong Thomas. I believe you are misinterpreting what he means by juice. Overall, however, I believe many of the things you say give the impression of lack of wisdom because you have trouble communicating your thoughts. This is constructive criticism. Meanwhile, you are probably wiser than I am. This does not make my point invalid though.

Re: juice
posted on 03/07/2002 10:32 AM by dxkj@hotmail.com

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Simply stating that brooks has it wrong does not prove its invalid. The mere assumption that "the juice" is the unexplained biological phenomenon we have not unraveled yet can be considered entirely correct from a neutral standpoint. Apparently there is something going on inside of brains and bodies that we havn't yet encapsulated into code or machinery. Its been years since a machine first was considered "computationally" superior to a human being, taking the place of a human as a "computer" (referring to the websters 1812 dictionary definition). Even more recently machines have been able to do more than just pure computation better than humans, among these is the defeat of Russian chess champion by Deep Blue. We are on a steady progression towards the understanding of thought, and this "juice" will eventually be understood as it exists, and implemented in machine and code form.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 01/29/2002 12:35 PM by back40@geek.com

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RK said:

"I don't have the space here to describe my software thesis in full, but it has to do with the reverse engineering of the human brain that I allude to above."

Where can I find the thesis? Is it more than is found in Spiritual Machines?

There's lots of space on Mind-X
posted on 01/29/2002 9:51 PM by roBman@InfoBank.com.au

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While there may not have been space for his thesis within the review...there's an abundance of space on Mind-X...


roBman reaches for his "Where's Waldo" book... 8p

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/04/2002 10:12 AM by extropy2u@hotmail.com

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I think that Dr. Kurzweil may be working on his software thesis right now for his next book, The_ Singularity_Is_Near. The_Singularity_Is_Near should be out sometime this year according to what I have read elsewhere on this site. - Bill.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/05/2002 7:50 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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I would like to comment that there is still much that humans do not know of ourselves at this point of time to fully understand what constitutes life or the basic concepts of time, space, thought etc. Thus it is imperative that any progress in such theories must be deliberated cautiously and aggressively to avoid misconclusions. To achieve this, the human brain must be able to free its restraints and keep a very open mind. Hence, Mr Brooks use of the word 'juice' which entails something not definable at the moment. It is one thing to build an artificial intelligence / lifeform that mimics the real thing and declare that this is how it works than to say that it is only a representation of one of many ways that it can be done.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/05/2002 8:21 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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We really don't need any 'juice'.

Everything is based on the well known facts about atoms and their interactions.

It is very, very complex however - and that is the only why, we don't know how to build a strong AI - yet.

Nothing else.

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/06/2002 7:06 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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Hi all:

"We really don't need any 'juice'." -- Can anybody say it with absolute certainty and full confidence ? It appears that a conclusion has already been reached despite the fact that there are no supporting evidence that this 'juice' does not exist.

"Everything is based on the 'well known' facts about atoms and their interactions." -- Again, not everything is based on the little known facts of atoms. Ask any physicist and they will tell u that physics has although progressed into the atom, they have more questions than answers. All knowledge is infinite, be it atoms, time, space, dimensions etc. To know is also not to know.

"It is very, very complex however - and that is the only why, we don't know how to build a strong AI - yet." -- I agree it is complex but it is definitely not the 'only why' to building a strong AI. For AI depends on much much more than the understanding of atoms and their interactions.

- Jim


Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/06/2002 8:02 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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Infinity? What infinity?

You can't go bellow the Planck's time or distance - where is any infinity in physics then?

You can't fill the infinite amount of information inside a finite space.

(If that WAS the case, a Singularity or a Goo could start millions of orders of magnitude bellow at any time - and swallowed us - long ago. Since processes would be much faster deep down. But if there is a bottom they lacks complexity. And there is absolute bottom 33 orders of magnitude down.)

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/07/2002 7:41 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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"You can't go bellow the Planck's time or distance - where is any infinity in physics then? You can't fill the infinite amount of information inside a finite space."
-- Infinity in physics lies in the observer's unceasing curiosity to know and question. For instance, what makes up the electron ? -- what makes up the entities that make up the electron ? It is the continous questioning and delving that allows knowlege to be gained / the picture to be more complete. Such questioning cannot be stopped as long as the observer is curious. Hence, the existence of brilliant minds who dedicate their entire lives to asking such questions.

As for 'a Singularity', as explained by Mr Kurzweil is a pt. in time where a machine will be able to achieve the computing speed and capacity of the human brain. Nowhere has it been shown even at this very moment, that a machine even after superseding the computing speed and capacity of a human will embodify intelligence. Hence, the 'juice' theory. (There is more than just computing capability at the heart of life itself)

- Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/07/2002 8:12 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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> There is more than just computing capability at the heart of life itself

As an emergent property of the calculation - yes. But deep down a massive calculation is going on - and nothing else.

Now we want tho change it's course slightly, to get what we want. Breath taking paradise.

- Thomas

p.s.

An electron might be very complex. Might be. But not infinitely. Far from that.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 7:45 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'As an emergent property of the calculation - yes. But deep down a massive calculation is going on - and nothing else.' -- And now the line is drawn ! I confess to being an ardent supporter of life being more than just calculations and computing. That emotions are not the byproduct of an intricate formula only. That we are more than our genes make us to be. To believe otherwise would be to admit that all concepts of matter, time etc are just perfect formulas only. That everyting around us is governed only by strict unyielding rules. That electrons are electrons only. Now, wouldn't that be trifle boring ? :)

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 9:22 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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> I confess to being an ardent supporter of life being more than just calculations and computing

What more? You are getting signals all the time from the environment. You process them by a not that complicated way, it can't be mathematized.

What else is going on, besides this data exchange? Speak now! Or later. Any time later.

> wouldn't that be trifle boring ?

You cannot afford to judge upon the level of how boring something is(n't).

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 1:39 PM by grantc4@hotmail.com

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Mathematics is a linguistic tool. " 1 + 1 = 2 " is the same as "one plus one equals two." The numbers are just a simplified method of writing the sentence. The sentence is an algorithm for manipulating numbers and other symbols, each of which has a name. The same rules of grammar apply to mathematical statements as apply to statements about anything else. And they are just as arbitrary.

Well formed statements are the result of the way we speak, whether it's about numbers or things or people. "I man am a" is unacceptable in English just as "1 = + 2 + 1" is meaningless in mathematics.

Reverse Polish notation shows that other arrangements are acceptable for some purposes and that makes the one you use arbitrary. The system we use is a historical accident based on the way we have used words and numbers in generations past. But in math or language in general, well formednes is a requirement for a statement to be understood.

I don't think mathematics exists outside of language. It merely reduces knowledge to a simplified statement of relationships between things we perceive in our environment. Such statements provide us with a codified way of manipulating our thoughts about what we've learned.

Computers just simplify the manipulation process by carrying out repeated steps of the algorithm more quickly without our having to think about it. All computer programs are just combinations of data being manipulated algorithmically. In the final analysis, so is language.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 2:42 PM by tomaz@techemail.com

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And what's language? A simulation tool.

Mathematics and physics we know, is a very good simulation tool.

Computer program built to execute some language expression does give us the same information as the executed real process would.

Sometimes is that all what we want.

If I ignite a fire to warm myself, I am after the heat - not the information.

If I want to see around the cave - than the physical process of fire will provide me some information.

And whenever we are after information - a (language) simulation is sufficient.

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 8:10 PM by shinjiuh@singent.com.sg

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'Computer program built to execute some language expression does give us the same information as the executed real process would.' -- What this means is the same as any doctor would do. If u have a cold, prescribe medicine for cold. If u have a headache, take pills for relieving headaches. U are looking at the ends and finding means through computation to recreate the ends. What truly powerful software should do would be to write complex software integrable along the time axis for infinite situations providing solutions to ultra complex real life events, not simulations. For simulations lack grounding in reality and reality is as diverse as the interactions of any particle. The ends do not justify the means b'cos formulas never take in many other factors. Take the billard ball scenerio, if calculations were true, then the person who knows how to calculate the formulas would be a grand champion. His every shot would fall as his formulas say they will. Hence, fomulas are only true and applicable in the strictest sense only. Take any formula and apply them to real life situations and they will be off their mark. So, there is much more at the heart of life than calculations only.
--Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/08/2002 10:43 PM by grantc4@hotmail.com

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>Take the billard ball scenerio, if calculations were true, then the person who knows how to calculate the formulas would be a grand champion. His every shot would fall as his formulas say they will. Hence, fomulas are only true and applicable in the strictest sense only. Take any formula and apply them to real life situations and they will be off their mark. So, there is much more at the heart of life than calculations only.

Right. He can win only if his eye is true and his hand doesn't shake. There is no formula that can compute that.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/09/2002 3:55 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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Hate to say - but you are very wrong here.

Processing the image data, modeling the reality on that and give the right push to the ball is all about calculation and simulation.

Doing the best with the available data.

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/12/2002 10:14 PM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'Processing the image data, modeling the reality on that and give the right push to the ball is all about calculation and simulation.' -- Sorry, I do not agree. In the human world such processing is done through neural networks in the brain. When the human first learns how to play billiard, his brain is learning everything new from a human perspective. This means that what he sees and feel through his senses are training his brain to act to hit the ball as accurately as possible. And then when the hit is achieved, the result is then fed back through the senses to retrain the brain for correction . After countless practice, the networks in the brain learn how to achieve shot after shot. Classical neural network theory and feedback correction. In AI, u cannot program the 5 senses that a human has cos the senses are biological, hence the lack of grounding between reality and virtual worlds. A human brain has neurons that adapt and are able to change their interconnections in real time forming different formulas each time. A simulation doesn't have that. U can however program feedback correction but b'cos the initial model is flawed due to sensing inaccuracy, the feedback will be imperfect as well leading to an inaccurate model. This is also why we can never forecast weather though software accurately enough unless the observer is there in person at the exact spot when the forecast is being made.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/13/2002 3:19 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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> This is also why we can never forecast weather though software accurately enough unless the observer is there in person at the exact spot when the forecast is being made.

This clearly shows how wrong you are.

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/06/2002 7:06 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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Hi all:

"We really don't need any 'juice'." -- Can anybody say it with absolute certainty and full confidence ? It appears that a conclusion has already been reached despite the fact that there are no supporting evidence that this 'juice' does not exist.

"Everything is based on the 'well known' facts about atoms and their interactions." -- Again, not everything is based on the little known facts of atoms. Ask any physicist and they will tell u that physics has although progressed into the atom, they have more questions than answers. All knowledge is infinite, be it atoms, time, space, dimensions etc. To know is also not to know.

"It is very, very complex however - and that is the only why, we don't know how to build a strong AI - yet." -- I agree it is complex but it is definitely not the 'only why' to building a strong AI. For AI depends on much much more than the understanding of atoms and their interactions.

- Jim


Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/23/2002 10:18 PM by iph1954@msn.com

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This purported "juice" reminds me of phlogiston.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 02/24/2002 9:50 PM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'This purported "juice" reminds me of phlogiston.'

Who knows ? Maybe it is something similar although the phlogiston theory was conceived as a purported answer to combustion, its nature could be applicable to this 'juice'. This 'juice' in my opinion, is actually a definition for something or concept that is relative to each observer much like intelligence is. It is also the inexplicable 1 + 1 + 'juice' = the ability to add up 1+1 = 2. (Such equations are bound to be the paradox of mathematics).

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/03/2002 5:03 PM by spy@nattcats.de

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Hmm... I was following this thread with growing interest, so here are my two cents:
Your discussion about 'juice' reminds me of the historical discussion about a misterious 'vital energy', which was meant to be necesarry to divide living things from dead matter.
If we would have something like an "algebra of evolution", computing power would be just one variable within its syntax.
If this algebra would be 'good' enough to be compared to our current mathematical description of what we can observe, we could discuss this issue like we today predict the path of astereoids or like we forecast the weather ;)

In absence of such an algebra we are not able to proof which role peptides, hormones, neurotransmitter and electricity do play in the soup (or juice?) of life.

I did not read Brook's book yet, so foregive me if I'd miss the point...

Regards, SpY

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/04/2002 7:58 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'If we would have something like an "algebra of evolution", computing power would be just one variable within its syntax.'
-Probably, maybe, who knows for sure ?

'If this algebra would be 'good' enough to be compared to our current mathematical description of what we can observe, we could discuss this issue like we today predict the path of astereoids or like we forecast the weather'
- u have cited 2 classic examples both embodifying chaos and fractals which is a new field that has already made its mark in gradually replacing classical physics and our understanding of complex systems around us. Personally, I think that the answer of this 'juice' may partly lie within this realm.

'In absence of such an algebra we are not able to proof which role peptides, hormones, neurotransmitter and electricity do play in the soup (or juice?) of life.'
-Well, as far as biological systems are concerned, DNA holds the codes. Suffice to say that the most astounding example is Dolly. Cloning Dolly showed the world that we can play God. But why did the clone have problems even though the codes were exactly the same ? Think about it and think hard.

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/05/2002 5:13 AM by spy@nattcats.de

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>> -Well, as far as biological systems are concerned, DNA holds the codes. Suffice to say that the most astounding example is Dolly. Cloning Dolly showed the world that we can play God. But why did the clone have problems even though the codes were exactly the same ? Think about it and think hard. <<
Are you sure that the codes are the same? Which codes? The one of the unborn "mother" of dolly just after the crossing over process and the one they implanted into the eggcell, i.e. the code from the aduld bodycell?
Not at all. Whatever you do with the DNA of an adult body cell, it has gone through various modifications in the past (Genes are switched on and off, cosmic rays and environmental poison destroyed genes etc.) These modifications can not be eliminated, i.e. the DNA can not be transfered into its original configuration.
Hard enough?

Greetings, SpY

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/05/2002 6:14 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'Not at all. Whatever you do with the DNA of an adult body cell, it has gone through various modifications in the past (Genes are switched on and off, cosmic rays and environmental poison destroyed genes etc.) These modifications can not be eliminated, i.e. the DNA can not be transfered into its original configuration' -- Precisely. Therefore it is although theoretically posible to clone, its practical aspects make it impossible to obtain an exact replica. This is what is meant by life being unique in itself. That u and I are as different as any other individual. u cannot replicate the parts and expect a complete functioning whole nor can u replicate one part and proclaim that u have found the truth. Which exactly counterpoints the 'Singularity'. This brings up the point of evolutionary robotics. :) (Glad u got the meaning)

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/06/2002 5:05 AM by spy@nattcats.de

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I can not argue for or against the singularity thesis because I did not yet read this stuff but I don't see any point why the principles of life as we discussed it can not be applied to AL technology. If you look at a genetically determined artificial neuronal net for example, you have a basic configuration as described in the DNA overlayed by a lifetime configuration permanently build through influences from the environment. The "package" as a whole is also individual, you'll never get two identical "beings".
I guess we have the same understanding of evolutionary robotics but where does it conflict with the singularity thesis?

SpY

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/06/2002 9:30 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'I can not argue for or against the singularity thesis because I did not yet read this stuff but I don't see any point why the principles of life as we discussed it can not be applied to AL technology.' -- What are the principles of life ? Pls define and enlighten me or have u already discovered the unit of intelligence ? :) Do not presume to know what cannot be defined yet. As of now, no single human on this planet can give a definition to the principle of life. However, we do know what governs life. Intelligence, evolution, survival to name a few. Are they 'principles of life'? Most certainly not. In GAs + NNs, have u realized AL ? No, far from that, what was achieved was a way to represent a possible aspect of human processing, one facet of many. 'Isn't it the key to understanding how human brains work', u ask. Then I ask: bring a human from the yr 1000, yr 2000 and one from the yr 3000. Put these 3 humans through the same exact environment but seperate them (jungle). Give them the same problem (a bear charges at human). What do u expect ?

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/07/2002 6:21 PM by grantc4@hotmail.com

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Piaget defined intelligence as what you do when you don't know what to do.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 1:12 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'Piaget defined intelligence as what you do when you don't know what to do.' -- One very incomplete and narrow definition in my opinion. Also, it was defined in human terms as like so many other definitions. Such defns are only observed only with respect to the observer's own intelligence and understanding.

Remember, intelligence is embodied in all living things be it plants, microbes, bacteria, insects, apes etc., unless u do not agree with this basic concept. (then u shouldn't be reading this).

Anyway, intelligence does not denote the principle of life. It is just another facet.

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/06/2002 9:31 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'I guess we have the same understanding of evolutionary robotics but where does it conflict with the singularity thesis?' -- The conflinct lies in the basis of the 2 fields. One to realize human level intelligence through reverse engineering of the human brain thereby resulting in only one possible form of intelligence, entailing that humans are the only true intelligence on this planet. This view is humanocentric and arrogant. ER however believes that intelligence exists in many unique individual forms and is not consistent across the same species be it silicon, flesh or fur. However, it can be realized throught the primal aspects of 'fight or flight' by engaging robots in 'life or death' struggles, using humans as the primary evolutionary agent. This results in many possible forms of unique emergence and intelligent behaviour like swarming, cooperation etc. that has also been observed in animals and humans. Through continuous evolution, a truly intelligent robot that exists in its own context can be realized. This realm is the 'black art' of robotics.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/07/2002 10:51 AM by dxkj@hotmail.com

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I understand the concept that even though you "clone" dolly, what you are actually cloning is an old, already modified version of DNA, but this is only problematic in non-stored state situations. I guess this is a bit off of the topic, but in AL there will be a set basis for beginning. A crude example is that by hitting ctr-c after selecting some text, i can exactly duplicate it. A more complex example comes when 10,000 cpu's come off of a production line with the same basic minimum functionality (though with more rigorous inspection they could become practically the same). This is all to say that while theoretical cloning of biological entities is possible, cloning of AL is far more probable.

-Shale

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 1:14 AM by shinjiuh

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I understand the concept that even though you "clone" dolly, what you are actually cloning is an old, already modified version of DNA, but this is only problematic in non-stored state situations. I guess this is a bit off of the topic, but in AL there will be a set basis for beginning. A crude example is that by hitting ctr-c after selecting some text, i can exactly duplicate it. A more complex example comes when 10,000 cpu's come off of a production line with the same basic minimum functionality (though with more rigorous inspection they could become practically the same). This is all to say that while theoretical cloning of biological entities is possible, cloning of AL is far more probable

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 1:23 AM by shinjiuh@singnet.com.sg

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'I guess this is a bit off of the topic, but in AL there will be a set basis for beginning.' -- That is correct. Although the beginning is interpreted differently under different individuals.

'A crude example is that by hitting ctr-c after selecting some text, i can exactly duplicate it.' -- Text is not duplicated. The program only knows it as binary forms. It is we humans that give meaning to what we see.

'A more complex example comes when 10,000 cpu's come off of a production line with the same basic minimum functionality (though with more rigorous inspection they could become practically the same). This is all to say that while theoretical cloning of biological entities is possible, cloning of AL is far more probable' -- When we talk about artificial life, we are already referring them as artificial, something not natural, we reproduce them in mass, they perform as though they are alive but as in the crtl-C explanation above, it is what we observe only. AL is 'living' within our context and expectations not without. This distinction is crucial and is why RB used a 'juice' theory to brige the difference.

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 7:32 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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This juice stuff - as has been said before - is a flogistone.

Unnecessary hypothesi.

It's a game of atoms writing symbols in the space during the time.

Processing information.

Should be said again! Shouldn't it be?

- Thomas

p. s.

IMO much more elegant and beautiful theory also.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 9:01 PM by shinjiuh@singent.com.sg

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Hi all:

For those skeptics out there, visit the below add. and listen to an interview of RB and his thoughts. Maybe some of u will then get a clearer picture from the man himself. Its an informative one and I hope that it will suffice to sway the unbelievers or al least consider that this 'juice' however its controversial nature does exist.

http://freshair.npr.org/guestInfoFA.cfm?name=rodneybrooks

That's all. :)

Jim

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/09/2002 9:50 AM by tomaz@techemail.com

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It's the wisdom of a simple man. Does a TV has some juice? Who has and who hasn't?

- Thomas

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 03/08/2002 2:34 PM by derekdunham@phreaker.net

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Heh. I will refrain from making an uninformed desicion based on my preferences about how I wish the universe to work this 'juice' theory... I will just wait and see. Please excuse any gramatical errors, I spell like a chimp.

Re: Review of Flesh and Machines: How Robots Will Change Us by Rodney Brooks
posted on 04/17/2002 10:49 AM by SWEET SWEET JUICE

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I'M THIRSTY !

Brooks: state-sponsored "capitalist"
posted on 04/18/2003 11:32 PM by Clifford

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Pentagon-funded "entreprenuer" Rodney Brooks plans on becoming the Next Henry Ford, but he'll have to dream BIG to top Eisenhower's $3 TRILLION Interstate highway gift to the auto and oil industry pharoahs.

Hey, can "My Real Baby" translate into the languages of the CHEAP-LABOR immigrant nannies?

If so, I'll order one from the FOREIGN SWEATSHOP.