Origin > The Singularity > What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
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    What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
by   Lee Smolin

Since the observers are inside the universe itself, we must formulate a "background-independent" quantum theory of gravity and cosmology , as well as the notions of time and change, to apply to a system with no fixed background, which contains all its possible observers--perhaps even one in which the laws themselves evolve as the universe does. Lee Smolin responds to Edge publisher/editor John Brockman's request to futurists to pose "hard-edge" questions that "render visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefine who and what we are."


Originally published January 2002 at Edge. Published on KurzweilAI.net January 21, 2002. Read Ray Kurzweil's Edge question here.

This is, I believe, the key question on which the quantum theory of gravity and our understanding of cosmology, depends. We have made tremendous progress in the last years toward each goal, and we come to the point where we need a new answer to this question to proceed further. The basic reason for this problem is that most notions of time, change and dynamics which physics, and science more generally, have used are background dependent. This means that they define time and change in terms of fixed points of reference which are outside the system under study and do not themselves change or evolve. These external points of reference include usually the observer and clocks used to measure time. They constitute a fixed background against which time and change are defined. Other aspects of nature usually assumed to be part of the background are the properties of space, such as its dimensionality and geometry.

General relativity taught us that time and space are parts of the dynamical system of the world, that do themselves change and evolve in time. Furthermore, in cosmology we are interested in the study of a system that by definition contains everything that exists, including all possible observers. However, in quantum theory, observers seem to play a special role, which only makes sense if they are outside the system. Thus, to discover the right quantum theory of gravity and cosmology we must find a new way to formulate quantum theory, as well as the notions of time and change, to apply to a system with no fixed background, which contains all its possible observers. Such a theory is called background independent.

The transition from background dependent theories to background independent ones is a basic theme of contemporary science. Related to it is the change from describing things in terms of absolute properties intrinsic to a given elementary particle, to describing things in terms of relational properties, which define and describe any part of the universe only through its relationships to the rest.

In loop quantum gravity we have succeeded in constructing a background independent quantum theory of space and time. But we have not yet understood completely how to put the observer inside the universe. String theory, while it solves some problems, has not helped here, as it is so far a purely background dependent theory. Indeed string theory is unable to describe closed universes with a positive cosmological constant, such as observations now favor.

Among the ideas which are now in play which address this issue are Julian Barbour's proposal that time does not exist, Fotini Markopoulou's proposal to replace the single quantum theory relevant for observing a system from the outside with a whole family of quantum theories, each a description of what an observer might see from a particular event in the history of the universe and 't Hooft's and Susskind's holographic principle. This last idea says that physics cannot describe precisely what is happening inside a region of space, instead we can only talk about information passing through the boundary of the region. I believe these are relevant, but none go far enough and that we need a radical reformulation of our ideas of time and change.

As the philosopher Peirce said over a century ago, it is fundamentally irrational to believe in laws of nature that are absolute and unchanging, and have themselves no origin or explanation. This is an even more pressing issue now, because we have strong evidence that the universe, or at least the part in which we live, came into existence just a few billion years ago. Were the laws of nature waiting around eternally for a universe to be created to which they could apply? To resolve this problem we need an evolutionary notion of law itself, where the laws themselves evolve as the universe does. This was the motivation for the cosmological natural selection idea that Martin Rees is so kind to mention. That is, as Peirce understood, the notions of evolution and self-organization must apply not just to living things in the universe, but the structure of the universe and the laws themselves.

Copyright © 2002 by Edge Foundation, Inc.



www.edge.org

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Lee smolin/WHAT IS TIME
posted on 03/14/2002 4:33 PM by mark.T.@doune100fsnet-co.uk

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READERS OF THIS ARTICLE MAY BE INTERESTED TO READ MARCH 16 ARTICLE IN NEW SCIENTIST WHICH POSTULATES THE THEORY OF A CYCLIC UNIVERSE: WHICH SEEMS TO SAY THAT NEW LAWS ARE INDEED CREATED EACH TIME THE "CYCLE" REPEATS IE. THAT PHYSICS IS INDEED EVOLVING.I THINK THAT THIS MAY HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANCE FOR THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE IDEA OF A "SINGULARITY" AS DEFINED BY MR KURZWEIL ET AL.MY FEELING IS THAT A TECHNOLOGICAL SINGULARITY WILL BE UNABLE TO WITHSTAND THE FATE OF A COSMOLOGICAL ONE.WOULDN'T IT BE AMUSING IF JUST AS WE WERE FINALLY WITHIN REACH OF TRUE SELF KNOWLEDGE WE WERE THWARTED BY NATURE AND RETURNED TO THE SWAMP.
WHO KNOWS HOW FAR AHEAD OR BEHIND WE ARE OF OUR ULTIMATE DESTINY.HOW FAR DID PREVIOUS CIVILISATIONS PROGRESS BEFORE THEY TOO WERE "BANGED"

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 09/12/2006 3:59 PM by mindx back-on-track

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back-on-track

Re: What is time
posted on 12/29/2006 2:41 AM by Pimenov

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Time is a MEASURE of LOCAL CHANGES, evaluated by the parameters of local base-processes (like gravitation). All other details see in my text:
http://comm.roscosmos.ru/ForumMess.aspx?recID=216

Re: What is time
posted on 12/29/2006 8:11 PM by EyeOrderChaos

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yeah, and you know, space-time curvature is taught almost universally as science fact, even though it is based on math-only "proof", a true "black box" with no physical evidence other than the input-outputs of physical measurements.
It might as well be a giant clown that bends space-time like a party ballon, in just the right degree to satisfy the equations.

Re: What is time
posted on 01/02/2007 6:23 PM by Agathon

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Actually , we humans and our mathematical calculations sometimes just are similar to religion.. they find some kinda interesting notion and begin to hinge and build all the subsequential researches and observations on that idea,paradigm,relative point of observation or paradigm or view that is not truly OBJECTIVE but SUBJECTIVE in some sense. because somebody bore that idea and did something to prove it and others trusted it since all kinda observations are not enough to prove this kinda enermous thing.. they can and may forward and inge their observations and mathematical calculations.. because as you know mathematics is sometimes paradoxical.. that 0 after heavy calculations comes to equal with 1 and that means that numbers can't always tell us the truth .. they just swirl around the IDEA , PHILOSOPHICAL SPECULATION that sometime somebody suggested and made it like that ,that everybody trusted..
Science is falsifiable unlike religion so it means that scientific paradigms and notions , laws could change and deviate when they are replaced by the modern and new ideas..actually everybody now accepts that the universe is really a huge place where EVERYTHING IS NEARLY POSSIBLE amd there could be no law that it could ever obey.. it behaves itself the way that we never could imagine.. it could change it's size , form, shape, colour, state, it could evolve, it could appear stuffs from nothingness and reversely dissappear things back to nothingness.. and not even mathematical , physical , chemical calculations or formulas could ever explain why it happens--
So there's nothing , no kinda restriction, no law, no notion that we could imagine the universe as.. it is beyond our conception and there's something true was said that we humans, the conscious observers could never observe and begin to learn about the true nature of the universe until we get out of the system and look it from the outside.. since we can't do this now maybe never.. we totally can't have any imagionation or the slightest objective idea of how this thing looks like.. so we just speculate..speculate and speculate..
and the paradigm about the universe bing bang.. big crunch.. big freeze and big cool.. bog fart.. anyway are truly insane ideas.. false ideas that are just nothing but speculations.. and microwaves making the zjjjj sound could be the sounds that stars could makie or any kinda Dark matter.. Dark energy which constitute the 96% of the known universe and these things remain totally unknown to us.. and I wonder why we humans like to speculate and call the big bang science..
anything could be.. could have happened and mere observations couldn't be the evidence.. we even do not understand why we yawn..and we try to solve the most distant things.. the reason is our minds.. they are evolutionally maximalist..wanna hit the roof every time..
just imagine now.. did you ever think that there could be trillionth of civilizations down in the subatomic levels? that we never could see and observe?
interesting isn't it?

Re: What is time
posted on 01/04/2007 12:15 PM by CharlieM

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There is no question that light-paths are bent by gravitational sources. Occult telescopy of stars' images that sit just behind the edge of the sun and gravitational lensing of far-off galaxies demonstrate it.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/04/2007 1:12 PM by CharlieM

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There is no substance to either space or time. Space and time are neither cause, nor effect.

Time is without intrinsic feature except for the events and conditions it contains. Time is therefore assumed to be non-discrete and continuous.

Time is apprehended and identified by the duration between occurrences. Time has the ability to accept any conditions and events without regard to *when* they occur. There are no favored or forbidden moments or durations.

The occurrence, duration, and sequence of events are determined solely by the interactions of objects (matter and energy) that generate them.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/04/2007 3:46 PM by mystic7

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Yes, I agree. There's no such thing as "space" or "time". The only thing in the universe that can be EVIDENCED is matter/energy. What most people think of as "space" is nothing more than the volumn that exist within the discrete energy field know as the big bang.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/04/2007 5:52 PM by CharlieM

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Right. Space is that which exists between objects.
Time is that which exists between events.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/05/2007 4:15 PM by robertkernodle

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There is no substance to either space or time.

-- CharlieM

Maybe that's the big flawed assumption that leads to our confusion. For humans to grasp a reality, there must be a "something" primarily to grasp onto.

Suppose we work with the premise: There is ONLY substance, of which space and time are qualities realized in a certain ensemblic assemblage of it.

Robert K.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/05/2007 9:00 PM by CharlieM

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That is the ironic dichotomy of the universe. The non-substance of space and time mixed with the substance of matter and energy.

If time or space had substance, it would get in the way of matter and energy. It would interfere. But it doesn't, therefore there isn't any substance to time or space.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/07/2007 4:49 PM by strategos

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Time is an invention of HUMAN, it doesn't exist
What's the "TIME" at your work or on a party ?
can you feel it measure it ? even the atomic
clock doesn't work ! calender ??

sux6

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/07/2007 7:03 PM by CharlieM

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"Time is an invention of HUMAN, it doesn't exist"

Time exists, it just doesn't have any substance and can't cause anything. It is the duration between events.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/07/2007 8:01 PM by maryfran^

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***Time exists, it just doesn't have any substance and can't cause anything. It is the duration between events.***

Time has not substance, however time can cause many things. For example time marks the entropy of all events occurring in the physical body = all atoms are spatially separated by micro times. All the physical atomic interactions between molecules are affected and influenced by every local position of every atom. The intrinsic atomic interconnection provokes the wear and decline of the system, unless any modification is intentionally applied into the system to induce either the acceleration or the deceleration of this process (shorten or extent the life of a system). between these 2 options (shorten or extent) the latest one is quite more difficult to achieve'

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/07/2007 8:48 PM by mystic7

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In the above example, time does not cause anything. It's just a relative aspect of the atoms.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 4:36 AM by maryfran^

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***In the above example, time does not cause anything. It's just a relative aspect of the atoms.***

And which algorithm (unsubstantial algorithm I would say) or formula is marking the 'relative aspect of the atoms' other than time??

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 7:40 AM by mystic7

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Atoms cause things, not the mark of the atoms.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 8:59 AM by maryfran^

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'Atoms cause things, not the mark of the atoms'


It would be fair then to define **time**.

Why atomic structure of this universe is running clockwise? There must be some force out of atoms that is causing a certain **orientation spin** of the things that mark a direction. All that exists is causing something.

The shadow of a tree is not a material thing, however it is causing something. Something that marks or reveals the signs of a cosmic orientation, whenever you are able to calculate and observe how this **shadow** is transforming its shape as long as the earth rotates at a harmonical rate on its axis, turning in an eastward direction, then the sun is apparently rising in the east and apparently travels towards the west, although the sun actually is not moving. The unsubstantial shadows are clues'

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 9:48 AM by mystic7

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On a hot summer day it's cooler in the shade of a tree. But it's the TREE that cause the shade that causes the cooling. Even if the spin was backwards, it's the existance of the atom that causes the spin.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 10:28 AM by maryfran^

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pls correct me if i am wrong, but are you suggesting that the origin of the universe is atomic?

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 10:39 AM by mystic7

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Without matter/energy, there is no time. Example: absolute time zero("before" big bang).

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 11:14 AM by maryfran^

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the term **before** is already related to time, so when saying **before big bang** you are using the concept of time... then where is the absolute zero time ??

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 1:16 PM by CharlieM

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Time has not substance, however time can cause many things. For example time marks the entropy of all events occurring in the physical body



Time does not 'mark' anything, as it has no substance. It is the events caused by the interactions of matter and energy that provide the 'clocks' and so mark the time.



= all atoms are spatially separated by micro times. All the physical atomic interactions between molecules are affected and influenced by every local position of every atom.The intrinsic atomic interconnection provokes the wear and decline of the system, unless any modification is intentionally applied into the system to induce either the acceleration or the deceleration of this process (shorten or extent the life of a system). between these 2 options (shorten or extent) the latest one is quite more difficult to achieve'




There is no 'wear' as we tend to think of it (mutual rubbing of parts in contact) because there is a physical space with a perfect vacuum between separate atoms or molecules. The decay of atoms (as in the radioactive nuclides emitting alphas, betas, protons and neutrons) is caused by so-far-unknown internal processes. We know they occur to achieve nuclear stability and have charted their half-lives, but we do not know the precise mechanism. Other changes in atoms can be caused by the addition or removal of betas (electrons), or by the bombardment of neutrons (fission), protons, alphas or even other nuclides (fusion). The extra-nuclear electrons can be shared, as well, forming all the molecules from atoms, usually initiated by chemical reaction such as oxidation (combustion) reduction (electrolysis) or by ionizing radiation (such as cosmic rays).

In every case, there is a process, an interaction of matter or energy from some internal or external source. It is these processes that take various *times* (they each do not occur instantaneously or all at once) and so provide 'clocks' for us.

It is not time that causes events, but rather causative processes and visible or detectable events that mark duration and which we perceive as time. Time is simply the duration between events.

The occurrence, duration, and sequence of events are determined solely by the interactions of objects (matter and energy) that generate them.


CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 2:20 PM by 7 thousand

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What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?

Firstly,there is no way we can pass through the universe without puting space into consideration.
Normally,space is a code that is neglegible to a change while In space is the relatioship of all space entities with itself as a constant.
Howewver time is the interval between two spaces after a change.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 4:39 PM by robertkernodle

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Again, I am suggesting that the "right language" involves giving primacy to substance.

A totally different manner of thinking is required to say (what I propose): "Space and time are qulities of experience BY substance-thinking."

The confusion stems from not having a primacy to anything; therefore, everything gets juggled on there being no one agreed-upon primal basis to describe human experience.

EXAMPLES OF CONFUSION:

Time exists, it doesn't have any substance and can't cause anything. It is the duration between events.

--- Charlie M.

If something EXISTS, then what does this mean if not that something has substance? So,... how can time both exist yet not have any substance or cause? How can it measure duration, without there being a necessary SUBSTANCE on which to base the interval of duration? Time, thus, is both substance and cause, from this perspective, because it cannot be invoked as a concept without a concept of substance upon which to ground it.


Example: absolute time zero ("before" big bang)

--- mystic7

Here the word BEFORE invokes time consciousness to describe its abscence. That's an internal contradiction, because you have to aknlowledge time, in order to say "before", in order to claim its abscence. CONFUSION. ABSURDITY.

I agree with maryfran here.

Robert K.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 6:15 PM by CharlieM

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R.K. wrote:


If something EXISTS, then what does this mean if not that something has substance? So,... how can time both exist yet not have any substance or cause?


A person's mental image picture has no outward substance, but it exists. A concept such as 'love' has no substance, yet it exists, even though it means something different to each entity. The MIP or concept can't cause anything, it is only someone's interpretation of those intangibles that may, or may not, induce him/her to action.



How can it measure duration, without there being a necessary SUBSTANCE on which to base the interval of duration? Time, thus, is both substance and cause, from this perspective, because it cannot be invoked as a concept without a concept of substance upon which to ground it.


Time does not 'measure' anything. We measure the duration between events by counting other events that occur naturally, or at our hands. We can measure temporal intervals in days (number of suns, or times the earth has rotated). We can measure how long a standard clock's second is in terms of the number of state-transitions of an atomic clock. (Wicipedia: Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as 9,192,631,770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the Caesium-133 atom.) This measurement is not able to be sensed or performed directly by humans, but we build instruments that can do that for us.

It all boils down to events caused by the interactions of matter and energy, and the temporal intervals, or duration, between them.


Example: absolute time zero ("before" big bang)
--- mystic7

Here the word BEFORE invokes time consciousness to describe its abscence. That's an internal contradiction, because you have to aknlowledge time, in order to say "before", in order to claim its abscence. CONFUSION. ABSURDITY.


Anyone may put words (or concepts) together in a nonsensical way, and any others may object to the practice. But both sense and nonsense, like beauty, depend upon the eye of the beholder.

'Before big bang' is a concept that has meaning for me. Even if there wasn't time before the big bang, it means (to me) 'at a point prior to the beginning of this universe.' If you subscribe to the concept that the universe was created in the big bang, there must have been a point prior at which there was nothing'or at the least, less.

I lead a much richer life because I can entertain concepts such as these.
Try it. You might like it.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 7:28 PM by mystic7

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Now that I seem to have stired up a hornet's nest with time, let's move on to another subject---space.

I'm sorry folks, there ain't no such thing.

For an example, let's go back to our old friend the big bang.

QUESTION: If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

ANSWER: NOTHING

note: In the above question the term "into" implies volumn rather than space.
If you assume the big bang happened 13 billion years ago, and the resulting energy field has been expanding out in all directions at the speed of light, you would have a sphere with a radius of 13B. Now what exist in the exterior of that sphere? Wait a minute-- there is no exterior is there.

p.s. I think you all knew exactly what I meant by "before the big bang". If you didn't, shame on you.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 10:55 PM by CharlieM

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Space is apprehended and identified by the distance between objects.

There is no substance to space. It is without intrinsic feature except for the matter and energy it contains.

Space is neither cause, nor effect. Any effect upon matter or energy is assumed to be communicated through space, but only by matter and energy.

Empty space has the ability to accept matter and energy in any place or attitude and motion in any direction. There are no detents, bands, or other favored locations or angles of orientation. Space is therefore assumed to be non-discrete, or continuous.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 9:56 AM by mystic7

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Yes, so in other words, there is no such "thing" as space.

I think the reason this may be a hard concept for many of the readers to get can be found in Indo/European languages. The core of those languages is something called a "sentence". The fundamental property of a sentence is a subject/object relationship. Or in other words, Noun/verb. Nouns are held as "persons, places, or things". The term "space" is a noun.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 11:59 AM by CharlieM

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Yes, Mystic7

Space is immaterial, but it does name useful concepts. (41 of them, according to the on-line Merriam Webster dictionary.)

In very basic terms:

Space is the distance between objects.


CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 12:58 PM by mystic7

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Yes, and for the sake of debate, let's say there are two different types of "space". Space inside the big band energy field , and space outside of the big bang energy field. The inside space is filled with matter and energy. The outside space is nothing.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 3:06 PM by CharlieM

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The inside space is filled with matter and energy. The outside space is nothing.


Right. Space can't be measured or discerned without objects at the end-points. You can even say it doesn't exist except between bits of matter or energy. The bounded (but open to expansion) universe keeps all its emisions better than a black hole. It is the perfect black hole. If one could perceive from outside the universe (without a physical presence, of course) one would not be able to see it.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 7:01 PM by mystic7

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Yes, and doesn't it follow that no time exist in this outside space?

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 8:08 PM by CharlieM

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Right.

Because time is the duration betwen events, no time can exist if there are no events.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 4:45 PM by maryfran^

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***Yes, and for the sake of debate, let's say there are two different types of "space". Space inside the big band energy field , and space outside of the big bang energy field. The inside space is filled with matter and energy. The outside space is nothing.***

The outside space is nothing? The concepts of outside and inside are referred to locations or positions of objects. These concepts are coordinates and/or measurements. Which is nothing? Nothing even is not referred to outside or inside.

Yes, there could be 2 types of space: our subjective perception of space and time (mere illusions of the human mind, which are real for us indeed) and the quantum space, or a quantum field that lends the possibility to create this qualitative illusion. The quantum field is another higher dimension of comprehension which exactly is not **outside** rather it is just **another phase**'

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 6:39 PM by mystic7

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Of course the outside space would be something rather than nothing if you were there.

Quantum mechanics doesn't exist without matter/energy.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 7:12 PM by maryfran^

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to sum up: my opinion is that this universe is a phantasm ... or better said it is an ubiquitous hologram

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 5:04 PM by maryfran^

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***Space is the distance between objects.***

This is a very general description that does not help to decipher which factors are behind the measurement.

And every object enjoys itself a planck-time'


Which SIZE of the objects does mean?? Which is the real size of the things? We can measure an object with a conventional metric ruler, putting directly the ruler over the PHYSICAL EDGES of the object and get the length between objects. But this measurement is not real, because we are confining the atomical structure of the object into an AMORPHOUS LINEAR RULER. In other words we are confining something that exist in 3d (4d?) dimension into the 2d plane of the amorphous ruler. However our minds are perfectly measuring all variables and algorithmic functions that are accounting for sizes correlated with its distances and times'.. just we do not know yet how to describe and represent the complex network of equations that are intervening in all the measuring-process under mental calculation(3d or 4d?). but i think this soon will be made ....

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 7:54 PM by CharlieM

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CharlieM wrote:

Space is the distance between objects.


maryfran wrote:

This is a very general description that does not help to decipher which factors are behind the measurement.



It is prior, and primary, to measurement. It is the first principle upon which any distance measurement can be attempted, and yes, it is perhaps the simplest explanation of what space really is. It is true at any scale. It is elemental, fundamental, and basic. No frills, and not much else to explain, either. No translations into other dimensions or languages, no alternate interpretations necessary, no viewpoints from far-off places, just the guts of what space actually is: the distance between objects.

If we want complications and equations, then mass, distance and time are changed (in a relative way: with respect to a stationary observer) with increasing velocity, as formulated by Einstein. Even with such apparent changes, space still turns out to be the distance between objects.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 7:36 PM by maryfran^

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***Time does not 'mark' anything, as it has no substance. It is the events caused by the interactions of matter and energy that provide the 'clocks' and so mark the time.***

But we make predictions, we create algorithms to calculate for example astronomical events: 'astronomer Halley was quite curious about the orbits of the planets. Using Newton's Principia, Halley calculated orbits for the comets of 1531, 1607, and 1682 and discovered that they must be successive returns of the same object. He correctly predicted that the comet would return in 1758 and it has been known as Halley's Comet ever since.'

This means that before matter and energy interact each other, there is an independent 'algorithmic time' that enables such **interaction**. Then we can use this independent-algorithmic-time in order to anticipate and predict cosmological events or any other kind of predictions. we even can change the **relative present** to avoid a predicted catastrophe that will occur in x-time.

***There is no 'wear' as we tend to think of it (mutual rubbing of parts in contact) because there is a physical space with a perfect vacuum between separate atoms or molecules. The decay of atoms (as in the radioactive nuclides emitting alphas, betas, protons and neutrons) is caused by so-far-unknown internal processes. We know they occur to achieve nuclear stability and have charted their half-lives, but we do not know the precise mechanism. Other changes in atoms can be caused by the addition or removal of betas (electrons), or by the bombardment of neutrons (fission), protons, alphas or even other nuclides (fusion). The extra-nuclear electrons can be shared, as well, forming all the molecules from atoms, usually initiated by chemical reaction such as oxidation (combustion) reduction (electrolysis) or by ionizing radiation (such as cosmic rays).***


This **wear** is not related exactly to physical parts in contact, but to the general entropy of the system (individual parts fully interconnected) that causes the final collapse of such system. Furtheremore, a **wear** does not necessary occur when physical parts are in contact, also it happens with another kind of interactions based in non-physicality (mental, cognitive, ' etc): example a hard discussion being held via internet'.

When you say **there is a physical space with a perfect vacuum between separate atoms or molecules** it could be that such separation indeed exists thanks to the time-algorithm.


***In every case, there is a process, an interaction of matter or energy from some internal or external source. It is these processes that take various *times* (they each do not occur instantaneously or all at once) and so provide 'clocks' for us.***


I think that you are detecting here some kind of **independent-algorithmic-time** that induces every atom to enjoy its own timing. All these micro-molecules-times functioning within a system are properly synchronized by our conscious mind that is able to experience these 'clocks' as a continuum movie.


***It is not time that causes events, but rather causative processes and visible or detectable events that mark duration and which we perceive as time. Time is simply the duration between events.***

I do not know the original root-causes of the events, so causative processes could involve many 'factors', one of these factors could be 'algorithmic-time'' CREATED/IMPOSED BEFORE BIG-BANG, THIS MEANS THAT @@TIME@@ IS EMBRACING ALL EXISTENCE...

The duration between events could mean many things, for example the gestation process of a human duration = 9 months. Result = one person.


***The occurrence, duration, and sequence of events are determined solely by the interactions of objects (matter and energy) that generate them.***

In the mind all memories are stored in sequence of events, however the conscious mind uses a **timing** which is not precisely based on physical interaction of objects'

mf

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/08/2007 10:24 PM by CharlieM

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MF wrote:


But we make predictions, we create algorithms to calculate for example astronomical events: 'astronomer Halley was quite curious about the orbits of the planets. Using Newton's Principia, Halley calculated orbits for the comets of 1531, 1607, and 1682 and discovered that they must be successive returns of the same object. He correctly predicted that the comet would return in 1758 and it has been known as Halley's Comet ever since.'


Which proves my point: We can't predict the recurrence of something that has not already occurred one or more times (and which we have noted the characteristics of the attendant events). Halley had three recorded sightings and using a little celestial mechanics, deduced they were the same object returning each time. The period was between 75 and 76 years, so the prediction wasn't too difficult once the concept of a periodic retracement of the path was understood.

There is no universal algorithmic time. Events occur or not independently according to the interactions of the matter and energy that created those events. A repetition of events (Halley's Comet) is just another case in which, as I've said, "The occurrence, duration, and sequence of events are determined solely by the interactions of objects (matter and energy) that generate them."

The comet knows nothing of time. It does what it does because perhaps some collision set it in motion. Time does not create the events. Events and their durational separation create the sightings, the clock-ticks, that we understand as time. If people had not been on earth to record the sightings, there would have been no change in the orbit. The prediction, however, couldn't have been made without the prior sightings.

CharlieM

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 7:00 AM by 7 thousand

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I think this answer the topic question:
Permit me to write it this way.

I will like us to focus basic AI needs.Normally there are basic human needs.If you can't take care of yourself that is an human failure itself.
Society is dynamic and the law is trying to catch up with the society.Thesame thing is apply to AI and our society if we can try to create a law that could be a recepient of the society.
Is a matter of education and information.Above all reformation of our MINDS.

Ai basic needs start from AI basic logic.
Ai basic logic is a CHANGE.
A change is an imaginary relationship between spaces at a constant space reality.

Having known that imagination is VIRTUAL but knowledge is an imagination that is REAL,process with a speed of light {or faster than that} to exist in space at a point in moment waiting for another imagination to take place.

If this process occur once in 1CIRCLE then there is a PERIOD.
If the duration is more than once in many circles so to speak, then there is no period during the process until it stops.
Hence,NO TIME EXIST in the process but the interval in respect to a circle between the BEGINING of the process could be measure base by our logical minds as TIME.So that we can have TIME at a certain period.
7000.


















Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 7:06 AM by 7 thousand

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When there is a disorder the process of knwoledge fails so we have the END.
The time interval between the BEIGINNIG of the process and the END of the process could also be measure as TIME by our logical minds.
7000.

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 2:07 PM by robertkernodle

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We establish habits in how we use words, and sometimes we can be perfectly content with less-than-optimal habits.

I stand by my foundational claims based on substance. The human mind needs a someTHING on which to be grounded.

No substance, then no need to invoke time. Something FIRST exists (i.e., "is substance") before it exists "in time", "in space". Substance encapsulates both concepts. We merely divert awareness by this juggling act of confusion that denies substance primacy.

No hornet's nest here,.. just fun contemplation of diverse habits in word usage,

RK

Re: What is time, and what is the right language to describe change, in a closed system like the universe, which contains all of its observers?
posted on 01/09/2007 2:26 PM by robertkernodle

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Love requires lovers (i.e., substance doing the love).

Happy requires happy happenings (i.e.,substance conceiving a certain configuration of its substance-self as "happy").

Love is a configuration of substance. Happy is a configuration of substance.

Time is a configuration of substance. Space (inseparably contained in the concept of configuration from the get go) is a higher realization of this inseparable meshing, momentarily suspended.

More afterthoughts,

RK